Clarifying criminal vs. by-law charges

[Cracker Jack]

I would argue that my main interest in going to a body rub is not "sexual".

I enjoy good touch intimacy, giving massage in reverse which doesn't "arouse" me but I very much enjoy. Good touch as general health benefits without having to be a "disease" or condition to cure. As does sexuality.

I pay no seperate fee for the "happy ending" and the overall session has much more to do with good touch intimacy than being sexual in my view and from many years experience.

I am not physically sexually "aroused" as evidenced by the obvious untill maybe the last 10 minutes of a 45 minute session. Therfore most time is non sexual if you define sex by sexual arousal.

I would be glad to testify to this in a Court if would be helpful in a case !

 

[Binka]

Thank You oagre for explaining the law as it stands

Now it's up to US as reasonable and responsible adults to decide whether or not visiting MPs is worth the risk....

Personally I'm not married nor do I hold a professional position of "trust", so I have alot less to lose than some massageplanet.netites.... but the idea of seeing my name plastered in the Toronto Star is unappealing.

People always seem to skip the murders, rapes and endless body count in Iraq to see if they know anybody who was arrested in an MP raid ! LOL

Anyway, the heat always seems to blow over and the chance of police and politicians stamping out the urge of guys wanting to visit hot chicks equals ZERO.

 

[Merideth]

People really need to learn the difference between bylaw officers and police officers and not lump them together. Oldjones, I do not believe that you have to do anything for a bylaw officer. If a police officer asks you do to something, you should definitely do it, but I don't think bylaw officers can compel you to do anything, even produce ID.

The reason is that bylaw officers are not "Police Officers" and as such, they do not have police powers. That is, they do not have the power or equipment (e.g. handcuffs) to "arrest" (which literally means to stop movement) someone and as such, they do not have the authority/means to compel you to do something. I believe, that in the presence of a bylaw officer ONLY, you can come and go as you please, and you do not have to produce ID if asked by a bylaw officer. If there is a police officer accompanying the bylaw officer, do whatever the bylaw officer says, but if the bylaw officer is alone, they have very little power, and they know it.

Moreover, I just read (OK, I skimmed it) Markham's Body Rub Bylaw 2002-292. There is nowhere in the bylaw that governs the behaviour or conduct of customers - in fact the bylaw does not even define what a customer is! It strictly governs how the MPA's act and dress, how the owner acts and runs a business and the facilities that are to be present in the business. As such, when bylaw officers enforce a bylaw under this bylaw, they are not even mandated to look at customers. I did not read other municipality's bylaws, so maybe there is something in those.

I defer to those more legally experienced than I (and I just read Oagre's post above which is similar to mine) - and if anyone has been asked to produce ID by bylaw officers please let me know, but I do not believe that you are compelled to provide ID to a bylaw officer (unless it is written that it is an offence to do so in some other law that I have not read). When I was in an MP with bylaw officers they stared right through me, and within 10 minutes of them being there, I just got dressed, and walked right out in front of them. They did not stop me or ask me anything.

Again, if there is a POLICE OFFICER who is laying criminal charges, it is a different story, but we really need to educate ourselves about bylaw enforcement and police/criminal enforcement. They mean two entirely different things, and the risks involved are different as well. If MP's were only the subject of bylaw enforcement, I would frequent them much more than I do now, especially in Markham. However, because there is a possibility of criminal charges, I have been much more judicious in my hobbying.

 

[Matthew K]

Hi fellow massageplanet.netites!! Since there seems to be some confusion going on here, I just thought I'd shed some light into the situation. Honestly speaking, not just because I'm a MPA and trying to make light of the situation, but the chances of a customer being charged as a "found-in" is really not that big. However, if you ARE charged, I guess you're really sh*t out of luck because your name MAY be printed in your local newspapers, you WILL have to show up for court, AND you can not leave the country because being charged as a found-in IS a criminal charge. If you are caught at a MP by the by-law officers, chances are, they're just going to kick you out EVEN IF you were caught naked and your MPA was also naked. Honestly, I've been caught naked by the by-law people TONS of time and EVERY TIME they just kicked my customers out. (When I say tons of times, I mean over ten times. I kinda lost count.) However, they did ask them for their ID and checked to see if they had prior records or charges. After they deal with my customers, they usually issue me a ticket and charge me with "not being covered by an opaque material" which I just threw in the garbage in the past since I don't drive so they can't really do anything. (It might be a problem now because I DO want to get a car next year so I guess if they charge me now, I WILL have to show up for court which would really suck!!) HOWEVER, if you are caught by the COPS while they are busting the place, then, it all depends on them. They may or may not charge you as a found-in. So if you decide to go to a MP that's known to be frequented by the LE, just pray that if you do get caught in there, that it's the by-law officers and not the cops that catch you. The cops are WAY more serious and they're the ones who lay criminal charges. By-laws only issue tickets. I swear, I am not making this story up but one of my whacker friends recently had this one guy come in with a vibrator and wanted it up is you know what. So while she was doing that, the by-law people walked in on their session. They just bursted out laughing and couldn't stop. They threw the guy out and they said to my friend "so this is what's happening at holistic centres huh??" They didn't give her a ticket or anything because I guess they didn't even know what to write on it. What are they suppose to write?? She was fully dressed. Dildo up the guy's a**?? BUT, if it was the cops that walked in, I'm sure it would've been a whole different story.

 

[Jared]

Actually you can't see the different between bylaw officers and police officers !
As usually they cooperate. They'll show to you their ID for 0.1 sec., and ........

I had shit in my pants, when I saw them for the first time in one of the MP!

 

[Truth Hurts]

How can we all drive at 120kph when 100 is the legal limit? Read the Code to know what the law is (oagre's right: "found in" makes you a "found-in" ) Now if we could just figure out what's actually going to be enforced

 

[countryjohn]

is way more interesting than battling lawyers.


BTW leah_mpa any news from your psychic?

 

[bitsonews]

I guess that's true - anyone flashing a badge looks alike, and we likely assume the worst! When you saw them, were the police and bylaw working together? If so, were they laying just bylaw offences or criminal charges? I'm assuming just bylaw, because if criminal, you'd still be shitting in your pants.

When I was in the MP, there were just two bylaw guys there - specifically two guys in "Town Of Markham" golf shirts, and they looked really out of shape. No cops inside or out (I looked out the window before I left to see if there was even something that looked like an unmarked car in the lot, and there wasn't one.)

 

[MissNewmarketSalsa]

This whole thing stikes me as total nonsense. A municpality licenses a common bawdy house? Ridiculous.

"Your honor , how was I to know the place was a bawdy house . It was licenced by the City of Markham as a body rub parlour and that's eaxactly what I was having. If it were a bawdy house wouldn't that mean the City, by virtue of it's fees, was living off the avails ? " .

Enough theory and BS . Can anyone cite a case in the GTA or surrounding municipalities where there has been a conviction of being a "found-in" in a licensed massage parlour? Simple yes or along with the name of the MP will suffice.

 

[shevy]

Look at some of my previous posts:

 

[bambinn]

Leah, I am trying to picture this session, but every time I come close, I just can't help burst out laughing. Thanks for the laugh.! And remember, stay away from those vibrators while in session!

A little levity can go a long way.

 

[miaugh]

Don't be afraid to politely and firmly ask to see the ID again. There's nothing wrong in doing that. The only time you'll get into trouble is if it's the cops - not by-law - and they're busting the joint and they're in a hurry to check out every nook and cranny. Then they may think you're deliberately shitting them and being a smart ass. You don't want that. You want them to like you and think you're a good guy. Then they won't be pricks to you. (Well, probably not).

 

[KayKayBee]

I've read the arguments for and against and honestly, I wouldn't be caught dead going to an MP. Just the thought of getting your name published in the paper is scary enough. It seems as though the municipalities have got their sights set on shutting down the mps, and if I was a cop I would rather be investigating attractive young ladies giving hand jobs than investigating drug dealers in the welfare buildings at Jane and Woolner...

 

[TahoeT]

Good question Train. I'd like to know the answer as well, to better assess the risks of visiting MP's in general, and particular MP's specifically.

However,

1) Is a conviction the only worry, or are we also concerned about arrest records, media exposure, embarassment, career impact, and if applicable, marital fall-out?

2) Do we really know which MP's are licensed body-rub places, since it is now clear that all the Richmond Hill MP's are not licensed despite previous claims by the proprietors (knowlingly) and some massageplanet.netites (disingenuously) to the contrary?

 

[Jennifer T]

Interesting thread...

While Perry Mason's take on the legalities around the GTA rub 'n tug scene would make a funny Boston Legal episode, and, in theory there's some validity to his opinions [IMO] I wouldn't be walking into my local MP these days feeling so cocky. I'll tell ya this, if I ever got caught in a raid and my lawyer suggested we use the argument I needed to be jerked off for medical purposes, I'd find a new lawyer.

Using common sense; I would think the barometer of how screwed you are if you get caught during a raid would depend on how much evidence is on file and the reputation the place you're in has for extras offered. Frequent a place that's known for FS and/or has under aged girls and it's just a matter of time before you're up shits-creek IMO. (Go to those places on Sunday mornings when LE is still sleeping )

kkarn/

 

[ansmenam]

Yeah right!
As an experiment why don't you for the next 6 months tell the MPA whenever she wants to touch your dinky to stop. And then ask her to continue massaging until the time is up.
Please report back your findings in 6 months and after you spent thousands on therapeutic massages.

 

[Sarah Stone]

I think the terms of the Richmond Hill licence is that the girls remained clothed at all times and no sex acts take place. If those are the rules, the place would not be a common bawdy house. I leave it up to you as to whether you think the licenced spas always diligently comply with the terms of their licences.

Of course, the municipality is basically interested in scooping as much $ as possible in licence fees. And yes, it's all pretty silly.

 

[Spooky1]

I am not particularly found of that argument, because it could not be generally applied and we would all need notes from our doctors. I like the argument where the finish is incidental to the overall massage.

 

[Aristo]

Actually Oagre you are correct on the points of law except for one little situation. There has been no conviction that I'm aware of where a mpa actually touched a cops genitals and she was convicted of bawdy house, indecency or any other charge you can think of. The majority of the charges laid are dropped for lack of evidence.

Of course it also depends on the JP who hears the charges.

As a lawyer you cannot "think" or "assume", you need factual evidence before you can make your "recommendations".

I suggest you stop trying to induce paranoia among those who visit the MP's, licensed or not and also, lose the chip off your shoulder. It's obvious you have a bone to pick.

 

[Deaner 2.0]

I know of some. Problem is they plead out and accept the convictions to avoid trial.

In my opinion, for what it is worth, I could care less about conviction rates verses being hassled, having my name published and the embarassment.

I think we would all agree the SC's are not the same as they were 5 years ago. Why is that? They are all still open and in demand, but not the same. I can see the same thing happening with MP's.

I do see all kinds of problems with the wording of existing massage parlour bylaws and I do think IT has a very good chance fighting them. As I recall SC's won a few battles early on as well.